NMNOn a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Fred
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:17 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Fred » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:56 am

Alcohol has effects on the mitochondria, sure. But there´s no evidence that suggests replenishing NAD treats or prevents reoccurrence of alcoholism.

Even if NAD precursors lessens the symptoms of alcohol intoxication that doesn´t mean it treats alcoholism.

And just because alcoholism leads to vitamin B deficiencies that doesn´t mean that taking said B-vitamins treat alcoholism. They treat the B-vitamin deficiency CAUSED by alcoholism. You are making logical somersaults.

Abraham Hoffer's old theories on alcoholism and nicotinic acid are quaint but doesn't provide proof of anything.

There's no title called "orthomolecular professor". Orthomolecular is just a made up word for treating diseases with vitamins. It never got traction and is only used by alternative therapy people these days.

Where are the clinical trials that show remission of alcoholism with nicotinic acid or other NAD precursors? Answer: they don't exist.


Fred
Registered dietitian, Sweden.
vandan
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by vandan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:43 pm

daviddean wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:00 am
There is a direct effect of alcohol consumption and mithocondrial health.
Here are some interesting scientific studies, where is clear how much is important to mantain an high level of NAD+ at cellular level to prevent alcoholism or help with hangover.

Alcohol (Etanol) appears to be a consuming factor of NAD+, so impairs the energy production of OXPHOS (Oxidative phosphorylation) and the electron transport chain (ETC). So is critical, to protect the efficiency of this energy pathways of cellular energy production.
The following studies analyze diverse topics on the alcohol consumption effects in several human organs and demonstrates the direct partecipation of mitochondria as potential target of compounds that can be used to prevent therapies for alcohol abusers.

Alcohol and Mitochondria: A Dysfunctional Relationship
JAN B. HOEK, ALAN CAHILL, and JOHN G. PASTORINO
[FULL TEXT HERE https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih ... s16822.pdf]

Cellular and Mitochondrial Effects of Alcohol Consumption
Salvador Manzo-Avalos and Alfredo Saavedra-Molina
[FULL TEXT HERE https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... -04281.pdf]

Status Report Concerning the Use of Megadose Nicotinic Acid in Alcoholics
Russell F. Smith, M.D.1
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

A Five-Year Field Trial of Massive Nicotinic Acid Therapy of Alcoholics in Michigan
RUSSELL F. SMITH, M.D. 1
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/j ... 4-p327.pdf

Interesting book on the correlation between NA+ and alcoholism
Addiction: The Dark Night of the Soul/ NAD+: The Light of Hope

https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Dark-N ... 111&sr=8-1
This is gold
vandan
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:44 pm

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by vandan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:49 pm

Fred wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:56 am
Alcohol has effects on the mitochondria, sure. But there´s no evidence that suggests replenishing NAD treats or prevents reoccurrence of alcoholism.

Even if NAD precursors lessens the symptoms of alcohol intoxication that doesn´t mean it treats alcoholism.

And just because alcoholism leads to vitamin B deficiencies that doesn´t mean that taking said B-vitamins treat alcoholism. They treat the B-vitamin deficiency CAUSED by alcoholism. You are making logical somersaults.

Abraham Hoffer's old theories on alcoholism and nicotinic acid are quaint but doesn't provide proof of anything.

There's no title called "orthomolecular professor". Orthomolecular is just a made up word for treating diseases with vitamins. It never got traction and is only used by alternative therapy people these days.

Where are the clinical trials that show remission of alcoholism with nicotinic acid or other NAD precursors? Answer: they don't exist.
Fred I must say I have found a number of your posts to be somewhat aggressive. Have you received this feedback before? These forums are refreshingly supportive of new ideas and collective scientific exploration. I am yet to meet anyone who has all the answers.

As a registered dietician I am sure you wouldn't want your name turning people away. I look forward to reading your next few posts.
Newage
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Newage » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:53 am

I have to agree with you Vandan
The old saying “ That if you can’t say something that is supportive and nice, then don’t say anything at all. “ Should more times than not, be adhered to.
This is a powerful and constructive forum and there are many benefits to be gained by taking note of all posts whether you agree with them or not..
Fred
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:17 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Fred » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:38 am

Vandan,

Thank you for your candid critique. I agree that this forum is a wonderful collaborative effort but shouldn´t also ideas that are flat out wrong and possibly unhealthy be challenged at all? Is it more important that everything is "nice" even if potentially dangerous misinformation is being spread?

High dose nicotinic acid can cause severe liver dysfunction with deranged ALT and AST enzymes. There are such cases reported after taking 2-3 gram or more per day, as advised by Abraham Hoffer 45 years ago.

Secondly, vitamin B3 can not cure, treat or prevent alcoholism as the original poster claimed. I find it irresponsible to make those claims and if you do make those claims, you should be able to take being challenged.

Vitamin B3 didn´t cure alcoholism 45 years ago and it doesn´t today either, sadly. I wish it was that simple.

Newage,

You thanked me for correcting you earlier when you were misinformed and wrote a post with incorrect information. I did the same here.

Newage:
"My mistake Fred..
Should have been sugar beets..as per your link.
We are not all dieticians.
Thank you for your comments."
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=809&p=1676&hilit=tmg#p1676

To point out that you simply can´t cure alcoholism with a 45-year-old idea (vitamin B3) and that high dose nicotinic acid can cause liver injuries I hope and believe can be quite helpful information to members of the forum.
Fred
Registered dietitian, Sweden.
User avatar
daviddean
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 am

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by daviddean » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:05 am

Fred, I appreciate your feedback but I outline what I wrote in a previous message. My credits goes to people who studied by years the topic and that wrote some "papers". I'm always open to new ideas and critics, but I feel free to follow what I feel more scientific based and have a bigger background. The fact the acid nicotinic could cause liver problems in some cases would mean nothing, in fact we would need to evaluate the ways it has been used and the other parameters you didn't report. Also vitamin C or any other "safe" substances could be harmful in some cases. Also the use of NAD+ precursors could be at risk of cancer proliferation but, I repeat, we need to see in which circumstances and I which ways they are assumed.

If you would be more supportive to this forum, maybe you could post some references linked to the original papers, as I did for the clarity and usability of users of this forum.

The use of NAD+ could not be proved to "cure" or "prevent" the reoccurrence of alcoholism, but I think that the literature on this topic and relative authors are clear and could "prove" that the NAD+ precursors as NMN, NR, NADH, Nicotinamide and.... also nicotinic acid, can have a big impact on the consequences of alcohol abuse and could be useful also in the relapses, making the cellular and mitochondrial biology more "resistant" to the assault of ethanol and alcohol.

Anybody can makes his own idea, sincerely I don't feel to "hurt" nobody with my affirmations and... references I posted.
Fred
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:17 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Fred » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:22 am

Daviddean, you did claim in your original post, without providing any evidence, that maintaining high levels of NAD can prevent alcoholism (emphasis in bold added):

daviddean wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:00 am
Here are some interesting scientific studies, where is clear how much is important to mantain an high level of NAD+ at cellular level to prevent alcoholism or help with hangover.

I´m glad to see that you have completely walked back that statement and you now write that:

The use of NAD+ could not be proved to "cure" or "prevent" the reoccurrence of alcoholism...
Last edited by Fred on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fred
Registered dietitian, Sweden.
Newage
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Newage » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:30 am

Fred.
No one disputes, and we all appreciate the wonderful wealth of knowledge that you bring to the table.
Debating topics has been going on since the start of civilisation..
I believe the point that Vandan was making is about the way that the information is sometimes delivered. It could be brought to the table on a slightly more understanding “tray”.
“We are all in the same boat, sailing towards the same goal. We should all try to be shipmates”
Fred
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:17 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by Fred » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:35 am

Newage,
thank you. I´ll work on my delivery, I promise. But the content will stay the same.
Fred
Registered dietitian, Sweden.
User avatar
daviddean
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 am

Re: On a small side-note, would NMN help with a hangover?

Post by daviddean » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:26 am

Dear Fred, I didn't walk back the statement I wrote, and I repost it.

daviddean wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:00 am
Here are some interesting scientific studies, where is clear how much is important to mantain an high level of NAD+ at cellular level to prevent alcoholism or help with hangover.

Yes, improving NAD+ could help the mitochondrial biology to "prevent" the effects of alcohol on themself. Maybe my understanding of the English language could non be as perfect as yours, but anybody that readed the papers I posted earlier, could have a personal opinion about.

Anyway, if you don't give "credit" to the author of the paperss I posted or to Dr. Abraham Hoffer MD, FRCP, Phd, and author of so many publications, I attach this statement form one of his books - https://www.amazon.com/Feel-Better-Live ... 907&sr=8-1

Alcoholism is a NAD deficiency disease, and niacin [note: as I wrote, at his time were not available NR, NMN or NADH] can reduce alcoholic's addiction . Sure,this is not a scientific study in double blind, but I credit it and the author.

Anyway, Fred, I respect you... ;-)

I hope that my posts here could help someone to overcome his/her "compulsiveness" to drink and relieve their alcohol abuse.
I will not replay here anymore, because I think I gave my contribute to the topic and, sincerely I see that it is not going on in a costructive way.

Above all: There is no more deaf than those who do not want to hear!... :)
Best!
David
Image
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic